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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Koa
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Steve - skull and crossbones soundport??!! This is the greatest idea I have ever heard. I have a huge love for well done skulls. I was considering doing a soundport on my personal guitar, but mainly for aesthetics, and was thinking about doing something other than just a round hole. Believe it or not, I think you just hit the nail on the head (or the skull) for me. If I can come up with a design that I like and can execute, I'm all all over it. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:19 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Nice work, Russ! Do you decrease the main soundhoule significantly whith a port that size, or do you just leave it at a 'standard' 4" across (or thereabouts)?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:22 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Looking good, John! A question: are you perchance going to use an 'open' adjustable neck joint on that? Looks like a non-recessed version of the adjustable neck joint Mark Swanson posted recently on the MIMF, inspired by Mike Doolin's works. Also reminds me of Fleishmann's work (I think it was Fleishmann, anyway). 2 setscrews as pivot points in inserts, and barrel+bolt on neck?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:19 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Russ, the port you are using makes me think of the one Charles Fox is using on his new Ergo guitar. I played one while I was up there and it really does sound sweet from the players perspective.

Nice work!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:40 am 
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Koa
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Great work guys!

Joshua, I am looking forward to that skull and crossbones port.

Steve, I copied this from Howard Klepper's site. I have been reading through his pages, lots of great info there.

Jeff


From Howard Klepper's website



"I often add a sound port to the side of the guitar in the upper bout on the bass side. These were pioneered by the classical guitar maker Robert Ruck. They serve two functions. They radiate sound from inside the guitar in the direction of the player, allowing him or her to hear the instrument better. This can be helpful in a performance situation. It complements the double-side construction, which tends to make a guitar project its sound more forward. The other function is to deepen and broaden the bass response of the instrument, by providing an additional port from which bass frequencies can radiate. A guitar body is a resonator, in some ways like a Helmholz resonator (think of blowing across the opening of a bottle). A smaller hole than the main soundhole, located more toward the end of the body, will create a lower-frequency resonance. The effect is subtle, but has been confirmed by listening tests as well as by physical measurements. "


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:04 am 
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Cocobolo
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Mattia,

The soundhole on this guitar is considerably smaller than normal and oval shaped. Think of a Macaferri-type soundhole, and you'll be on the right track. I will post some pics of the whole box when I get a chance to take some! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:06 am 
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Cocobolo
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Oh...forgot....for those who are wondering, I cut the side port BEFORE bending the sides.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:59 am 
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Cocobolo
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Here's a soundport pic from my 1st attempt.




It's easy to draw or print from computer onto paper, glue the paper on, & drill and/or cutout.
Currently working on 2nd guitar with soundport in contrasting Sapele & Maple design - layered
for a 3d depth effect plus a few MOP accents. Gosh that sounds awfully gaudy!
I'll try to get some pics together of the inprogress one.

SkipSkip Beach38451.5439814815


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:02 am 
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Joshua--
You're just the guy to do it. And when that's accomplished, you can test out a sound port in the shape of a mud flap girl. Then a palm tree, then....

Jeff--
Thanks for that link, and the explanation. It's one of those things one needs to try for oneself!

Russ--Did you worry about the hole in the wood while bending? I would... weak spot and all that.

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Brazilian Rosewood
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So what is the thought on decreasing the soundhole size to compensate for the soundport? Are most of you doing that? If so, how do you calculate the amount to decrease it by?

Skip, that looks great! I'd like to see your next one.

Also, do most of you cut the port out before bending as Russ said he does? I thought I heard somewhere that it was quite a bit less risky to cut it out after the sides were bent. I may have dreamed that though.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:24 am 
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Has anyone eliminated the sound hole altogether in favor of just the sound port instead. I read on mimf, where there was some experimentation on sound hole-less guitars. I am ready to start carving the top plate for my 2nd archtop, and I thought I might try a sound hole-less concept. If it doesn't work, there's always the dremel!

chip


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:22 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Here's what I've read about the physics of side sound ports. They can not only help the player hear the instrument better, but can also make the instrument sound louder (carry better?) to the audience. Here's why:

The sound hole is misnamed. It's really a nostril; it lets the top move up-and-down by allowing air to move in and out of the box. The sound is really coming from the top, not the hole. That's why the best place to aim a microphone is usually not the hole. That's why a guitar with no holes would sound very muted, but one with a hole only in the side, or even back, works!

Now, why does the addition of side holes enhance the sound out front? Well, in practice the strings drive the top not only up-and-down, but side-to-side and front-to-back as well--all at the same time! One hole in the top can largely only allow air movement in one direction at a time, so if the majority of the top wants to move up (breath "in"), the other movements are compromised because the air direction is wrong. A hole in the side allows the guitar to breath "in" and "out" at the same time, thus getting a richer projection of the entire top movement.

Now, I'm no expert, but it makes sense to me.

Carlton



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:27 am 
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Cocobolo
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I don't know anything about the physics of sound holes or ports, but I do have one observation to add to the discussion: I held a small strip of paper (1/4 inch wide, 3/4 inch long) over my side sound port and noticed that when I gave my guitar a strum, the paper was sucked quickly into the port.   


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:28 pm 
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[QUOTE=BruceH] I don't know anything about the physics of sound holes or ports, but I do have one observation to add to the discussion: I held a small strip of paper (1/4 inch wide, 3/4 inch long) over my side sound port and noticed that when I gave my guitar a strum, the paper was sucked quickly into the port.   [/QUOTE]

That's interesting!

And thanks Carlton, for the info. Maybe a guitar with a pegboard top is not such a far-fetched idea afterall. (I know such a concept was not a part of this discussion, but my bro and I kicked around the idea in jest once.)

Oh--and Skip--very nice design on the ports.

SK
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:08 am 
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Koa
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Here are some of mine





I have only completed on instrument with the side sound port. The sound was amazing! So amazing that I am offering the port as a standard feature on my deluxe guitars.

Josh

Yikes! those pictures are kinda big. Sorry but they are all I had on my computer.bJosh H38452.4237384259

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:19 am 
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Koa
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Steve... ha, I don't know about a mudflap girl. A skull and crossbones sound port doesn't fit my guitars one bit either, but I'm doing a european maple guitar for myself, and it'd be a fun touch. Maybe I'll come up with something I won't have to explain to everyone though.

Skip - nice port!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:16 pm 
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Josh--What kind of wood is that? If someone put a gun to my head and made me guess, I'd say Bois de Rose.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:09 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Wow, ya get off the list for a few days...

I did a rather long experiment with ports a couple of years ago, and there are some pics on my web site of the experimental guitar. Let's see if I can summarize in in only a few chapters...

There are two kinds of air resonances on guitars, which you could call 'cavity' resonances, and 'pipe' resonances. Cavity. or 'Helmholtz', resonances involve a 'bottle' of some kind that is pumping air in and ou from the 'neck'. This is what you hear when you blow across the top of a soda bottle. This type of resonance needs a hole.

Pipe resonances involve air 'sloshing' along the length of a 'pipe'. If you get the water sloshing along the length of the bathtub, that's the same thing. These don't need a hole, but if there is a hole in a place where the pressure changes a lot (like at the end of the pipe) you'll hear it. The hole will also change the resonance frequency, and, because it's radiating energy from the resonance, make it weaker inside the pipe.

What we usually call the 'main air' resonance on the guitar is a cavity or Helmholtz type of resonance. It's the lowest resonanace on the guitar, and has a lot to do with the low-end timbre. It's frequency is set by the relationship between the soundhole size and the volume of the box, and also somewhat by the location of the hole. A larger hole makes the frequency higher, moving the hole up toward the neck makes the frequency lower. Any time you add a hole anywhere else it's like making the main hole bigger. The farther from the main soundhole the 'port' is, the more effect it will have on the frequency of the 'main air' resonance. Thus you usually want to make the main hole smaller if you're going to add a port, but it's hard to predict just how much.

There are a lot of pipe-type resonances in the guitar, with the air 'sloshing' along the length of the body, and across the bouts, and making some pretty odd patterns sometimes. Some of these pipe modes are 'heard' by the normal soundhole, but most of them aren't. For example, the air 'sloshes' across the lower bouts of the guitar at around 600 Hz, but you can't hear that on a normal flat top because there is no pressure change at the normal soundhole location (you do hear it on archtops, one of the differences...). Most of the energy that finds its way into sloshing that air gets wasted. A hole in the wide part of the lower bout on one side will let some of that sound out, and make the guitar a lot louder at that frequency. Thus it will change the timbre. Once again, a hole almost any place in the sides will 'hear' something that you don't normally hear, so it will tend to make the guitar sound 'different'. Better? who can say?

Some of the air sloshing resonances can work with the wood to produce sounds. This is usually true of the lengthwise pipe mode, at around 350 Hz. It will work with one of the top resonances (sometimes called the 'long dipole mode'), so that the top 'extracts' some of the energy from the air that you would not normally hear. This sort of 'coupling' tends to make the sound more powerful and more 'interesting'. Putting a port up by the base of the neck, or in the tail block, will enable you to 'hear' this mode more directly, and will also raise it's pitch. In that case, it might not work as well with the top (or it might work better). For sure a hole in the end of the guitar will make tat air mode weaker inside the box, so no matter what sort of dance the air and the top are doing or not doing, it will be less active with a port in the end.

A port does extract energy from air resonances you would not normally hear, but it's not a free lunch. Most of the energy that moves the back comes from pressure changes in the body, and the port cuts those down over the entire range of frequencies. Thus you tend to get a relatively large increase in sound output at one particular frequency, but a small drop in output over the rest of the range. The two seem to nearly balance out for almost any reasonable size of port, so that the overall effect on the power output is to add 1-2% over the whole frequency range. A larger port doesn't make the sound any louder, it just makes it more 'different'.

On 'normal' guitars most of the sound comes off the top and out the hole (that's how you hear most of what the back does). The low frequency stuff goes in all directions, but the high frequencies tend to be more and more directional as you go up. The player only hears reflections, if they're lucky. A port in the bass side of the upper bout will direct some high frequency toward the player, and makes a nice 'monitor'.

Aside from the exprimental guitar I've made two with ports. Both were Classicals with 1" diameter holes just above the wide part of the upper bout, where it will point toward the player. On one I put a nice surround to round over the edge of the hole, but the other just has a hole... I liked the surround, and am going to keep working on the idea: it looked nicer even if it didn't work all that much differently. I reinforced both of them on the inside with a piece of 1/32" birch plywood with the face grain crosswise, epoxied in place.       


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:15 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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Allen I love it when you talk technical. It just makes the engineering side of my brain buss with curiosity like a cat in a hampster hutch.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:43 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Sigh...just when I think I understand, somebody comes along and proves I don't!

So what do you think, Alan; is the "breathing top" theory I mentioned above just a bunch of hooey, or is it a part of the guitar's complex sound system, too?

Carlton


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:20 pm 
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Cocobolo
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I have been interested in side porting so I am glad to see this discussion. I asked this following question at another place and got hammered by several folks.

I know that the positioning and the size of the opening will have an affect on the sound and projection, But will the shape of the opening have any effect on the sound as long as they are the same size in measure of a round or oval opening.

I was looking at what Skip did with his,(Looks Good Skip) and it is along the lines I have been thinking on design.
There is a lot of folks that won't like the looks of a hole on the side of a guitar, no matter how good it sounds, because guitars ain't supposed to have holes on the side.

Daniel


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:06 pm 
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Koa
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Al's side port guitar.

Looks like something someone would bring to a frat party. Sort of like a wine sampler.

BTW, This guitar is one of the ugliest guitars I've ever seen, but it sounds pretty good. My favorite position for the side port turned out to be where most builders are already putting one. I suspect luthers develop a sense for acoustics and automatically gravitate toward things that work better.
Mike Mahar38454.3471180556


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:14 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks Mike: one of these days I should try to get computer literate....

The 'breating top' idea is OK, it's just that you have to think about what it means. Some people say that a side port releases 'pent up energy', and that's true enough, but another name for that is 'resonance', since a resonance always involves storing energy in one form or another. If there's _no_ energy 'stored' in, say, an internal pressure rise, then there won't be any resonance, and the sound will just be that of the string. Boring.

So, yes, opening up a port allows the top to 'breath more freely', but also changes the way the guitar works. You may or may not like the change.

Those old boys may not have had all the computer stuff we do, but they weren't stupid, and they weren't afraid to try things. Most of the stuff that worked is already in the 'standard' designs, and it's pretty hard to 'improve' them. Most of the stuff that didn't work was swept under the rug, which is why we keep reinventing it every generation or so. Remember, too, that most of the music around was written on those 'standard' designs, takes advantages of their strengths, and avoids the weaknesses. A guitar that sounds much different from 'normal' might not work out well, even if it is louder or whatever.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:19 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Whoops! I meant to comment of soundport shapes as well!

There's a fair amount of drag and turbulence created as the air flows through the hole. The smoother and more rounded the sides, the less of that there will be. That loss makes the air resonance peak lower and broader: it wastes some power and spreads the rest out over a wider frequency range. Thus a round hole is the 'best' in terms of efficiency, since it has the least edge for the area.

Iirc, a slot that is not too narrow acts like a hole with a diameter of 1/3 the slot length.   


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks, Alan. I guess what we keep proving is that there's no way to build the "perfect" guitar (thank goodness!) for everyone. It's what makes lutherie such an exciting challenge: Do one thing for an intended effect, and it has unexpected consequences elswhere. A side port might improve the sound on one person's guitar, and make yours sound worse because it's not working well with your body shape (or bracing, or scale length, or wood choice, or finish)! I guess that's why the journey to guitar enlightenment is so interesting/frustrating, huh?

Carlton


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